VGA FIRESIDE Ep. 5 feat. Kevin Zuhn: Interview Highlights
Chaz Evans got to Chicago-based video game developer KEVIN ZUHN on May 26th, 2021. Zuhn is the Creative Director at Young Horses, where they’ve worked on such hits as Octodad and Bugsnax. They also participate in game jams and makes experimental games in their spare time.
Highlights from their conversation are below, edited for brevity and clarity. The full interview, which includes demos of early versions of Octodad and Bugsnax as well as Antbassador, can be seen above and on YouTube.
On how they became interested in making video games
Kevin Zuhn: I've been making games since I was very young. Before I had a computer, I was making board games out of paper and pens. Because I don't know just the idea of making my own games was really fun to me, even though they didn't make any sense when I was a kid, but that's just how it goes. But I think my parents noticed how much I would create physical games. And they wound up getting me some game making software on the PC that was Klik & Play… It was a user friendly version of Multimedia Fusion, if you know that one. All of it is a precursor to like what is now GameMaker Studio. And so I made some early simple games with that. And that kind of really sparked my interest. Instead of doing math class, I learned how to make games on a TI-83 calculator. So I was--
Chaz Evans: Still making use of the tools of math class, but not quite...
KZ: Not the way they wanted me to. Math class turns into programming class for me. Oops!
CE: The TI distribution network of games is a fascinating, I think under-covered, under-historicized part of games culture. Did any of your creations of that time get traded to other people's TI calculators and passed around?
KZ: I mean, I traded them locally to friends of mine. So for sure, and I agree with you that the TI-83 game trade was monumental, because that's what got me into making the games because people sent me games that I was like, Oh, I could make one of these, especially like text adventures. Because you can do that on the calculator. You don't need to do it from an external computer. And so I made like, full RPGs on that thing.
CE: That's terrific. Do you remember any early titles that you completed in that in those days?
KZ: Yeah, the first one I made was called "Z Quest," for "Zuhn Quest," you see. And that was just a basic you-go-out-and-fight-slimes-and-a-dragon-style RPG. But the fact that I made it by myself on the calculator, I don't know that was important to me. I also made like a haunted house choose-your-own-adventure game, which I believe was just called Haunted House, because I hadn't figured out that titles are important back then.
CE: Hey, you were just going for an iconic, you know, sort of like platonic haunted house.
KZ: Yeah! (…) Then around high school, I did RPG Maker. That was the thing I really got into, because I just love RPGs a lot and wanted to make my own. And I also started doing flash a little bit, but I never really did that as much. The point is, all of these systems involved, like small indie communities on the internet, that kind of pass their knowledge around. And the main thing I would do is like, download as many projects as I could and tear them apart to like, find out how they were made... so that I could do it. And that that was sort of the... my creative spark for getting into the game making field. And it makes sense to me now that Oh, of course, I went into indie games. Like at one point, I thought I was gonna go more into the traditional studio system. But like, everything I was raised on, like, I didn't have as many traditional consoles growing up. Like, I just played games off the internet, made by people like me. So like, but as a result of a lot of my early game making I wound up like, I decided I was going to go to school for games. And at the time, there were only like a couple of schools that even did it, and DePaul was one of them.
On themes of imposter syndrome in Octodad, physical comedy, and creating empathy through games
KZ: I would say so like in the earliest pitch of Octodad, I think it was like more or less the second idea, right? The first idea is, Octodad is an octopus and he can't let anybody know. Like he's a secret octopus. And then part two of the idea when we develop the pitch more was: He has a family. So like that was super important early on in the project is that he is a family man. Because of course, like if he has a full human family: One, it is much harder for him to blend in as a person in this life. And two, way funnier. Because it does just raise a host of questions!
CE: A whole host of questions, that you as the maker of the game may or may not allow or address at the end of the day.
KZ: Exactly. Well, to me, it's better to raise questions than to answer them. So I think that as far as the imposter syndrome, and kind of the empathy at the heart of Octodad's character, that is something that you know, the longer we spend with the character in the world is something we dig into more and more. Because at the start, we're mostly just focused on the comedy of the situation. But me especially I can't help but whenever an absurd situation is created, kind of think about what it would be like to actually live it and the feelings that it would pull out of you. And so that is where I think the the pathos of Octodad as an imposter in this world comes from, and the kind of absurdity that human life has when you're a tentacle being. Right, like as an outsider looking in. Because I think that that's what comedy is good at, is drawing out the empathy of absurd situations.
CE: Absolutely. Do you think more often than not that there is that then the identification, where the player becomes closer to Octodad than the humans that are not noticing that he is secretly an octopus? I guess I don't know if you want to speak for your player base or not.
KZ: Yeah, I mean, I do think that each player is going to experience their, I guess, inhabiting of Octodad differently, because people take a lot of different themes and messages out of the game based on their own experience. But I do think that part of the core of empathy, and something video games are especially good at is making you live a situation. Because it is you who is Octodad, you're the one who's stuck trying to figure out how to navigate a grocery store with these legs. And so you understand what a tough life he has.
On motivation and being yourself within the Bugsnax universe
CE: Bugsnax is a first person exploration game. You catch bugsnax, you feed them to grumpuses. But it's also, if I may have my own interpretive moment, a game about community and relationships and how very difficult they are to maintain. What about the first person exploration format helps address that kind of subject? Which is a big subject! What about that format, you know, gave you the space to talk about what you wanted to talk about?
KZ: That's great question. I think that being first person in this game, especially, I think it's important that you are a character who lives in this world. And this is like, the main reason that the journalist doesn't have a defined name, or a defined look, is because effectively, the journalist is supposed to be you if you lived here.
CE: And were a grumpus.
KZ: And were a grumpus that's also a journalist. There's like a certain amount to which you need to like come meet the game as far as like you playing this role. But for all other intents and purposes, your experience of the game is yourself. And I think being in first person, walking up to these characters, and getting to know them, as they talk to you like, makes it feel more, more personal to you. Because it's you who's getting involved in this community. And I think what's good about third person games is embodying a character. I think that's, you know, it works for Octodad because Octodad is a very distinct character. And you need to be aware of where his body is. But in this game, where you are yourself, I think being first person matters a lot.
CE: Absolutely. And also, not only does it let you project your own, you know, life experience into what you're seeing, but it also gives you all the abilities to get frustrated, or fall in love with, or anything in between with all of these other grumpuses on the island, right?
KZ: Yeah!
CE: The opportunity to be like, Yeah, fine, I will go get that thing for you. You're welcome.
KZ: Yeah, I spent a lot of time on player motivation. As far as why you're doing things, always establishing a clear reason. And that too, I think, is part of the theme, is getting you to care about all of this. Because I know that a lot of people initially think like, this is very goofy, I'm not gonna take it seriously. But over time, they slowly get situated in this world, and to get used to the way it is, and do start to feel empathy for these characters in their situations. They stop seeing kind of the layer that is not usual to our worlds, if that makes sense.
And this is kind of similar to like, when you've played Octodad for a long time, you get very good at controlling his body. When you when you've played Bugsnax for a really long time, this is all extremely normal. And one of the funniest things about it was on announcing the game, being hit with like, Oh, yeah, this sounds completely absurd to anyone listening to us. Right? Like even even describing any amount of this game sounds like nonsense! Like, cool, great! I love it!
On one’s region or physical location becoming imprinted in the games they make
CE: Is there something about a city or place or a community that... there's a residue of that place in the work itself?
KZ: I think absolutely there is because you know, the the work we make is a product of our own experience. And and the community we live in is a part of that experience as well. So I think even if you were trying to make a game that was somehow universal, I don't think you could ever stop yourself from instilling it with the values and ideas of the place that you are.
CE: Is there anything in particular about being based in Chicago and being in the Chicago games community that you feel is manifested in the work of Young Horses?
KZ: If I were going to pick an obvious thing, it would be the joke about the Chicago hotdog.
