VGA FIRESIDE Ep. 4 feat. Catt Small: Interview Highlights
In Episode 4, Chaz Evans got to chat with designer and video game maker CATT SMALL about her background in coding and her highly autobiographical work. Catt also discussed her work organizing the Game Devs of Color Expo, and the challenges and surprises that came with sustaining it during a pandemic year.
Highlights from their conversation are below, edited for brevity and clarity. The full interview, which includes demos of Catt’s game SweetXheart and more insight into her UX design career, can be seen above and on YouTube.
Episode 5 of VGA Fireside streams live on Wednesday, May 26th at 5PM — tune in for our interview with Kevin Zuhn!
On how she got involved in making games.
CS: So when I was younger, the first thing that I programmed were dress up dolls. And that was like kind of an intro, it was the only thing I could really figure out how to code at the time. This was like 2000-2001. And there weren't a lot of game development tools that were super accessible at that point. So yeah, dress up dolls were the best thing I could do for a while.
And then when I was in college, I started to actually volunteer to make art for games. Because my friends were mostly programmers at that point in time, they didn't really know how to do game art or like UX or anything like that. So I was able to start lending my hands to that. And then over time, I started to learn from them, like, Oh, this is how you make a game. And it's actually not as hard as I thought. At that point, there were tools that were more like, drag and drop. And even though I knew how to program in terms of like HTML, JavaScript, at that point, I didn't really understand things like 3D, or how to make Unity work, for example. So it was a really high learning curve at that point. And something like Construct was a lot more accessible to my brain at that point in time.
So yeah, I really just started collaborating with those folks that I met through...it was mostly the NYU IDM program. And then because they were in the same building as, as the folks who were on the Game Center, at a certain point, I felt like I started to really absorb that culture, of like just jamming on games with folks. So that was really great.
I'm super thankful, especially to people like Arthur Ward Jr., who was somebody who I collabbed with a lot. We had the studio that was called Quantum Box where it was just like, you never know what you're gonna get. That was the joke. And we had like random jams with each other where we would just like, make like games that if you clicked on the logo on the website, you would be able to actually like play those games that we came up with.
So it was a really fun time, being like a you know, later-in-college student, just like volunteering my art skills and getting in return the skills to learn how to make games. And then yeah, over time, just kept working on that kept going to global game jams. And I also at some point, met Phoenix Perry, for example, again through NYU, and started working with code liberation, where I was teaching other people to make games while I was also learning how to actually build up my skills more.
On starter software for folks wanting to get into game design.
CE: You mentioned Construct just for those who are interested in finding a simple tool for getting started. Are there any other recs you have like, like Construct? Or is that still an option?
CS: Yeah, Construct is now on its third version. So I definitely recommend that I am trying to remember some of the other ones that were really popular at that point in time, I would say Game Maker is another great tool that I know some really talented folks have used and just like pushed to the limit. And I think that I'm going to experiment a little bit with that one next, because you can actually, I think, both Construct and Game Maker, you're able to export it to not just desktop applications, but also to console. So I'm a really big fan of tools that let you start with drag and drop, but then you can start to program.
Later, I ended up using Phaser, which is an HTML and JavaScript programming framework for game development. So I also really do like Phaser still, because it's very comfortable to me. But I think that it's harder to say turn that into a desktop application, for example. So there are some drawbacks, but I think it's really great for people who are coming from web development and want to get into game dev.
On her non-game influences.
CE: Here's a follow up question I have, which is, what kinds of non game media might be interesting to you, or influencing you at this moment? Is it? Or is it all just a complete immersion in games?
CS: Yeah, I'm definitely influenced by a variety of types of media. So sometimes film, one of the projects that I'm thinking through still requires a lot of storytelling. And so I'm doing a lot of research around, like, what makes people want to look into their family history, for example.
And I think that's, like reading, you know, like, just reading like, why people did that. And like reading blogs, and watching TV shows are all great ways to understand that because there are so many shows that are just very relevant to that exact thing that I'm like starting to dive into. I think that definitely also for me, as a designer, like I do user experience design by day.
So I think it's also super important to look at different applications and and the way that they work. And I find that really valuable for thinking about how to best communicate my points. Yeah, I feel like that's where my head is at right now, just like consuming a lot of shows that feel relevant to the work that I'm trying to do. Of course, definitely also playing a lot of games that feel like they are in similar veins is something that I do as well. And then yeah, just like really trying to read as much as I can on the subject that I'm studying.
CE: I really like hearing that you are comparing the feel of interaction in pieces of software that don't culturally present as games but still having that influence or the way interactions would occur in the game project you're making. Were there any particular titles that you feel like were influential to you getting into the field or right now that they're sort of like touchstones that are that are not games?
CS: Gosh. That is a really, really interesting question. I mean, I think it really depends on on the game. Like I think for SweetXheart, there were it was mostly definitely game gaming influences. For the project that I'm working on right now. I think it's mostly because I'm trying to scale up a little bit and not tell like a vignette of a story or to just make an autobiographical type of game. I think that's why I need to do a lot more external study, but I felt like what some of the earlier are a lot of my earlier games, like one of them is just about, you know, keeping two friends that have or two exes who have broken up from coming back together. And that's like such a universal story. I feel like that I didn't really have to research it.
Another game I made was also about breakups, but it was like the five stages of grieving your ended, your like old relationship and that also feels pretty universal. There's another game I made that was like a competitive cat petting game like, there. These are all very small, you know, like, ideas. But for this one I definitely have like, I literally have a Google Doc where I'm just compiling references to like different TV shows and like different like, posts that I'm reading from people so they can understand like, how would I go about building this world that is not the one that is mine?
On the Game Devs of Color Expo.
CE: In addition to making your own projects, independently, you're also involved Making a platform for others to have their games seen and featured and talked about. So can you tell us about the Game Devs of Color Expo?
CS: Yes, yes, I am so happy about what we're doing. Last year was a cool year for us, it was something that we didn't exactly expect—to have to go online or anything like that—but we were able to make it work. And it worked really well. So for those of y'all out there who do not know what the Game Devs of Color Expo is, it is an annual event that has been running since 2016. And it is really, it's a space for game creators of color to celebrate each other. But then we also, of course, invite anybody to celebrate these folks. It really came out of a need that I and a couple of other friends saw, because we were at the time having a hard time finding collaborators who wanted to support the kinds of games that we were creating. And so I was like, screw it, we'll just make our own space! You know, like, if y'all are really interested in the work that we're doing, then we can just be the people to cultivate that community.
I think we started the first year with a couple hundred people. And then the next year, we were at like 400. And then the next year, we had even more. In 2019, we had like 750 people or so. And last year, we had like 1500, and it was online. And so previously, we've been doing all in person events, but we switched to online and people loved it! And we're like totally vibing. And like we had a lot of fun, just like, you know, having some great conversations. So I'm really proud of the work that we've been able to do.
We're coming back again, this September. And yeah, we're gonna keep it online for now, because I think that eventually we'll probably explore more of a hybrid format. But we want to be safe, essentially, and create a space of comfort. And we really do also like that the online version is very inclusive of folks from around the world.
CE: If you're already starting your first event with a couple hundred people, I think that speaks to the fact you already had out the gate a smash hit on your hands of sorts, and also speaks to how presciently needed the event was and how there was clearly a strong audience rippin’ and ready for it right in its first incarnation.
So when people attend game days of color event, what can they expect? What kind of activities are we talking about? We're talking interactive business?
CS: So usually what we do is we have a series of talks by just really smart, amazing creative people, whether they indie game developers, or like people who are working in marketing, who work for marketing games, specifically, people who are like publishers, we have a variety of people who are just speaking about topics related to game development, that's really important, actually, because a lot of times people of color are the folks who are just talking about what it's like to be a person of color in games. And we're like, no, we already know that we're here, we know what it's like, let's actually let them speak about their expertise.
And ideally, we can, you know, uplift those people and like give them a platform to then be able to go on to speak at other places. And then in addition to that, we also are showing off books, games. So when we were in person, the the deal was that we would give you a tablespace for free, which is a thing that people don't generally do within the gaming industry, especially at large scale events where you have multiple hundreds of people. Yeah, like at least $500. Yeah, I think GDC is like several thousands of dollars to be able to show your game at a table. Yeah, so I was just like, we need to fix this. And, you know, like there was, there's lots of great games out there that just people can't afford to actually market their games in this kind of way, you know?
So yeah, we really wanted to make sure that it was accessible for folks to be able to actually, you know, also get to the events. So we do either pay people, pay for their travel, we do pay speakers as well. And then if you can't make it in person we are willing to call you in. We are also willing to support folks by having people run your tables.
So that's for the in person version. For online, we have talks in the same way. We also are we're working on more of like, we had an expo last year that was like kind of just like a list of games that you could go and play. We also started to partner with Steam, which was really great. So we had a Steam curator page, which is still running and I'm really excited about doing that again this year. And yeah, we're really starting to think more deeply as well about another stead of folks that I feel like we could do a great job at supporting, which is in addition to the indie devs, that we are, you know, really trying to champion, what about the folks that want to work for studios? How do we make sure that we can create those connections?
So something that we're thinking really deeply about right now is actually figuring out the right way to form, like, maybe it's mentorship, maybe it's not mentorship, maybe it's networking, with, you know, other creators. Maybe it's networking with people who are hiring at companies, it's really figuring out like, what that format looks like right now. And we're very exciting, excited about having a networking day at this year's event.
